Monero Community Workgroup Meeting: Saturday 24th August 15:00UTC

[plowsof]

Location: Libera.chat, #monero-community | Matrix

Instructions for joining the monero.social Matrix server.

Time
15:00 UTC Check your timezone

Moderator: plowsof

Please reach out in advance of the meeting if you would like to propose an agenda item.

Proposed Meeting Items:

1. Introduction
2. Greetings
3. Community highlights
   • v18.3.4 releases gui/cli @ https://www.getmonero.org/blog/
   • CypherStack releases Monero Analysis report
     News: Monero Observer - Revuo Monero - Monero Moon
4. CCS updates
   a. New Monero Website benched until a new design - site workgroup is reaching consensus on this and Diego has spearheaded the setting of a penpot instance @ https://design.getmonero.org/#/auth/login and is actively researching astro / new design.
   b. hinto-janai full-time work on Cuprate (3 months)
   c. 0xfffc 3 months full-time dev.
   d. Haveno Multi-Platform Native App For Every OS
   e. j-berman full-time development (3 months)
   f. tobtoht full-time feather + core development (3 months)
5. Workgroup reports
   a. Dev workgroup
   b. Localization workgroup
   c. Outreach workgroup
   d. Events workgroup - MoneroKon 2024
   e. Website workgroup
   f. Policy workgroup
   g. Research workgroup
   h. Seraphis Migration workgroup
6. Open ideas time
7. Confirm next meeting date/time

Previous meeting including logs

Meeting logs will be posted here afterwards.

[plowsof]

Logs

< plowsof > Meeting in 2hrs #1060

< plowsof > test

< plowsof > DataHoarder is m-relay okay

< DataHoarder > was till I went to sleep

< DataHoarder > 05:35:04 *** m-relay (~m-relay@user/datahoarder/bot/lucky-bot) has quit (Excess Flood)

< DataHoarder > flood again

< plowsof > hopefully an active community causes this and not malicious spammers

< ofrnxmr > 🫠

< DataHoarder > it also is never able to come back online, issues of that software itself

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > Datahoarder never sleeps and has fixed the problem

< DataHoarder > it literally died a few minutes after I went to sleep, it KNOWS

< plowsof > lol thanks Datahoarder!

< plowsof > Meeting time #1060

< plowsof > Greetings!

< ofrnxmr > Hello

< tobtoht >_ hi

< l​ederstrumpf:matrix.org > Aloha

< plowsof > Rucknium left an in-depth comment on boog900's proposal for bandwidth reduction here (goes into the privacy considerations of the proposed method) monero-project/monero#9334 (comment)

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > cypherstack released a Monero Analysis report and Monero CLI/GUI versions 18.3.4 has been released!

< plowsof > anyone wish to highlight something else that happened over this week?

< plowsof > we can jump into the ccs merge list if not https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/

< plowsof > ok lets go over them (there are new ones also)

< plowsof > a. New Monero Website benched until a new design - site workgroup is reaching consensus on this and Diego has spearheaded the setting of a penpot instance @ https://design.getmonero.org/#/auth/login and is actively researching astro / new design.

< plowsof > not much else to say about this until the design is resolved

< ofrnxmr > Design is resolved

< o​frnxmr:monero.social > Diego Salazar:

< ofrnxmr > pretty sure it goes like this: were using hammerman's design with some changes to the layout

< plowsof > nice, we can circle back to this then. if all is well we can look at merging this . and because unstoppableswaps got to adjust rates, so can we all, yay!

< plowsof > exciting

< plowsof > yes that was my small take from the last -site meeting, overall the color theme is OK

< plowsof > we can move on then pending any comments from Diego?

< plowsof > and janaka of course if theyre here

< ofrnxmr > yea

< plowsof > b. hinto-janai full-time work on Cuprate (3 months)

< plowsof > hinto requested feedback in the cuprate group

< plowsof > boog900 left a thumbs up

< c​hch3003:monero.social > No comments, just waiting the design proposal

< plowsof > thanks for the confirmation janaka

< ofrnxmr > I think an important question about cuprate as a whole: projected cost to bring to production

< plowsof > Rucknium looked into the zcash rust node conversion and found about 3~ish million usd of funding

< ofrnxmr > Zcash everything is about 3-10x monero, isnt it

< plowsof > we currently have 2 funded cuprate devs on the ccs, im not sure how many works on/maintains zcash rust node implementation

< ofrnxmr > (except for usage and price)

< plowsof > merging hinto then, next? :D

< c​hch3003:monero.social > Yes

< plowsof > c. 0xfffc 3 months full-time dev.

< ofrnxmr > No comments 🤷‍♂️

< tobtoht >_ +1

< tobtoht >_ (as in: merge)

< ofrnxmr > +1 0xfffc

< plowsof > i see only positive remarks from other devs for 0xfff merging, next

< r​ucknium:monero.social > IMHO, when cuprate gets a binary, it will be out of "limbo". I say "limbo" because AFAIK only cuprate devs are reviewing each other's work in depth. Once a binary is available, many people can test it out. That should settle questions about how the development is going.

< plowsof > they merge their own ccs proposals in the mean time without any over sight

< r​ucknium:monero.social > 0xfffc has been working hard on deep, long-term monerod issues. +1

< plowsof > merging 0xfff thanks for the feedback so far

< plowsof > d. Haveno Multi-Platform Native App For Every OS

< plowsof > ill hold off on this one as its only just taken shape / open for feedback

< plowsof > unless its a merge for people here?

< ofrnxmr > I havent read through the details enough, but the project is sane, license issue was corrected

< ofrnxmr > I think mobile access is one of the greatest deterrants for users

< plowsof > using a haveno instance needing only to "open an app" would be huge

< ofrnxmr > Localmonero had an app. My main concern would be if its "reto-only" or if compatible with forks

< r​ucknium:monero.social > Could this satisfy some requirements of the old Haveno UI CCS?

< ofrnxmr > Nop

< r​ucknium:monero.social > ok

< ofrnxmr > Old haveno ui ccs was extremely vague and was for a desktop frontend

< plowsof > id have to look at it closely to give an opinion. kewbits solution is on desktop (multi OS)

< plowsof > if the question is about re purposing haveno funds to fund kewbit

< ofrnxmr > The bounty funds should be repurposed imo

< plowsof > so we can definitley say people want it, and can it support multiple instances of haveno or are we funding a 'haveno reto app' which i dont like

< ofrnxmr > +1 ^

< plowsof > i will channel monerobulls spirit and give it a -1 to balance out

< ofrnxmr > Should ping woodser for comment as well

< plowsof > yes, it shuld take shape over the next coming days

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > you'll get to choose the network as part of an initial consideration process so long as they havent deviated away from woodsers protocol

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > you'll get to choose the network as part of an initial configuration process so long as they havent deviated away from woodsers protocol

< plowsof > if monerobull where here he would say no, it has to be reto only, how dare you fragment the network and let people get scammed

< ofrnxmr > 😂

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > I am here

< plowsof > welcome

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Well, people can take the advice to use reto, or ignore it and on their head be it

< plowsof > sane

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > I still think it's not a good move to promote "multi network" when there literally is only one network

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > perhaps we coulddddd put it as a default..... but that would have to be a community vote too

< d​ave.jp:matrix.org > Tor Integration: The app will enforce Tor usage, requiring users to connect via a Tor VPN relay (such as Orbot or InviZible). Without a Tor connection, the app will not proceed past the splash screen

< d​ave.jp:matrix.org > Only vpn mode ? Proxy mode ?

< ofrnxmr > And you pinky-swear to keep maintaining it?

< plowsof > according to erccicone haveno reto is illegal. so the ccs funding something illegal might be sus

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > It's more secure this way, no leaks.

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > 100%

< ofrnxmr > Erciccione is illegal

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I'm working on it since Thursday morning and havent slept lol

< plowsof > those words have just been said also and i am not a lawyer

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I swear to god

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Why can't it be stagenet only

< d​ave.jp:matrix.org > Nobody wants every app data going through tor

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Like haveno software

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > And the network has to adjust and publish itself

< plowsof > cover our asses and make it stagenet only and let someone fork it monerobull? thats a nice option

< ofrnxmr > +1. It should allow lan

< d​ave.jp:matrix.org > Not everyone wants every app data going through tor

< m​onerobull:matrix.org > Yeah plow, essentially have it be "reference software"

< c​hch3003:monero.social > Nym support please :p

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > It's configurable, you select just Haveno, it's better to abstract the VPN because you need special entitlements and signing to use on big app stored, by using Orbot, we make it compatible with big app stores along with fdroid

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > and I aint signing shit for the appstore sorry

< plowsof > we dont want contributors to go on vacation like poksst neither

< plowsof > making sure this ccs is above board for longevity is a priority

< ofrnxmr > +1

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > it's better overall for FOSS standards if we do it like this, Orbot wont ever get banned, but if we incorporate VPN proxy to haveno we lose some ability to be censorship resistant

< ofrnxmr > orbot is trashola

< c​hch3003:monero.social > Tor should be optional imo. Monerujo wallet for example only works with Orbot. And it's not user-friendly

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > You can use

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > InviZible too

< ofrnxmr > Tor, period. I can run my tor daemon in termux if i want. Not using or installing orbot

< d​ave.jp:matrix.org > Tor shouldn’t be optional, but proxy mode should be available

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Or I can just implement Arti or something but it wont be as secure im telling you

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > they dont have vanguard support yet I think

< ofrnxmr > just make it a socks proxy.. that way it can be i2p as well

< plowsof > lederstrumpf adding atomic swaps to this haveno ui was mentioned but removed as it was out of scope

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > This is a unique challenge with gRPC http/2 over sock5

< ofrnxmr > Tor and tor onions can be incredibly unreliable during ddos

< r​ucknium:monero.social > I thought you cannot connect to Haveno peers without Tor. Is that false?

< plowsof > cc'ing for the future unstoppableswaps / farcaster / eth-xmr / haveno ultimate client

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I could use envoy to translate the http/1 to http2, but thats also trashola

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I would argue thast more trashola than using orbot

< ofrnxmr > The app connects to a running haveno instance, correct?

< r​ucknium:monero.social > Oh right.

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I can try doing native libs on every OS but it would take longer

< r​ucknium:monero.social > I forgot about that detail. So it makes it less user friendly for phone-only users

< r​ucknium:monero.social > It is for people who are doing trades while away from their machine

< plowsof > so far all mobile apps in the monero ecosystem struggle with the tor issue? ive heard of some apps with it bundled in directly

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I want talking to @sneurlax today about this and the conversation was fairly optimistic

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Bundling with it directly is either messy, complex or insecure, one of the 3.

< ofrnxmr > i prefer external tor

< r​ucknium:monero.social > AFAIK it is easier to do Tor if you are connecting to a consumer/home machine since you don't have to open ports on routers or have a static IP address

< ofrnxmr > Even haveno itself started using external iirc

< plowsof > unrelated to this proposal but i would be interested in hearing valldracs thoughts on that if he has any reg bundled vs external tor

< ofrnxmr > Ruck: yep. Onion/i2p make it simple to punch through the firewall

< ofrnxmr > Molly uses socks proxy

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I looked at CakeWallet

< plowsof > oh nice

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > it seems they are trying to implement Arti based Tor

< ofrnxmr > Diego / stack and mysu use bundled

< ofrnxmr > Stack doesnt work with onions unless you ysevthe bundled tor

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > It might work for them as I presume they're using http1 based requests to xmr nodes rshter than grpc

< ofrnxmr > Connecting to tor ONLY when you want to make transactions is sus

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > You can leave orbot on, and have it ONLY connect to haveno

< ofrnxmr > Yep

< plowsof > with 15 mins left and plenty discussion over kewbits i think we can move on shortly?

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > starts on boot too, so does the haveno app background service

< l​ederstrumpf:matrix.org > ack - thanks. kewbit: why have atomic swaps been removed from the scope? it was a highlight in your original title ;)

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > :D

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I was asked to remove it

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Same with Hardware wallets

< ofrnxmr > because haveno has nothing to do with atomic swaps

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > So I did

< ofrnxmr > haveno is a standalone service. I dont see why the app should be a fleamarket

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I wasn't nessesarily limiting to the haveno ecosystem, it was a larger vision to bring more liquidity into a single place

< l​ederstrumpf:matrix.org > it should be a natural upgrade path though, no?

< ofrnxmr > No. Haveno is fiat<>xmr and xmr<>crypto

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Fair enough, but frankly I wouldnt describe it as that, nor do I see it as an issue, but I removed it nonetheless.

< l​ederstrumpf:matrix.org > sure. and atomic swaps are xmr<>crypto

< ofrnxmr > i'm being extra hard on the idea of having multiple services, because this should be a "haveno" app

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > atomic swaps deprecate havenos crypto swaps

< ofrnxmr > +1 plowsof

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > lol

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > So its haveno, BTC -> XMR

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > BCH -> XMR etc etc

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > haveno has no crypto swaps only p2p fiat :)

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > yeah that's fair

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > but how many years until more swap pairs?

< ofrnxmr > Bisq does 0 volume for every pair except for btc<>xmr

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > basicswapdex has many but thats another project

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > lets move on before too many cans of worms are opened

< l​ederstrumpf:matrix.org > exactly. so for haveno to remain relevant for xmr<>crypto, it makes sense to integrate atomic swaps there. whatever it's original design was should be a secondary consideration imo.

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Whats the average amount of offers on bisq at any given time

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > positive sentiment on this proposal clearly, open for feedback and input as discussed here

< ofrnxmr > Haveno needs to implement atomic swaps then, not this app implementing unstoppableswaps etc

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > moving on, e. j-berman full-time development (3 months)

< tobtoht >_ +1 j-berman

< ofrnxmr > Leder, this is for a mobile app for haveno. Not for haveno

< r​ucknium:monero.social > j-berman making good progress on FCMP++ implementation. +1

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > I’m happy either way, whatever it’s quickest.

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > merging j-berman

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > cc kayabanerve

< k​ewbit:matrix.org > Ultimately trying to implement atomic swaps will probably take up time better spent on haveno specifics

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > f. tobtoht full-time feather + core development (3 months)

< xFFFC0000 > +1 tobi

< ofrnxmr > +1 tob

< ofrnxmr > And welcome back

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > featherwallet.org consistently updates monero before all wallets, including monero gui/cli xD

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > as in releases with latest monero

< tobtoht >_ wouldn't be without your builds plow ;)

< r​ucknium:monero.social > +1

< ofrnxmr > monero-project/monero#8929

< ofrnxmr > Looking forward to this as well

< r​ucknium:monero.social > Will the planned Feather multisig support enable multisig CCS wallet?

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > progress updates are shared in #feather:monero.social . the bootstrappable / guix build process just feels alot easier than gitian, in part due to tobtohts docs/help, thanks

< xFFFC0000 > Surely we need tobtoht

< r​ucknium:monero.social > I guess the answer is obvious, but I wanted to bring up multisig CCS again :D

< ofrnxmr > feather multisig support is intended to solve the ccs and generalfund wallet issue

< tobtoht >_ r​ucknium: "Will the planned Feather multisig support enable multisig CCS wallet?" <- that's the point of the exercise, yes

< r​ucknium:monero.social > AFAIK the 2024 general fund transparency report hasn't been released yet

< ofrnxmr > correct. well over a year since the last one

< p​lowsof:matrix.org > correct

< r​ucknium:monero.social > Just an opportunity to bring it up :D

< plowsof > merging tobtoht

< tobtoht >_ thanks all :)

< plowsof > AOB - noting ccs transparency report

< ofrnxmr > #998 trans report request

< plowsof > otherwise thank you all for attending and giving feedback at short notice, lets push these proposals through

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