Replies: 15 comments 27 replies
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No, the synths are usually very specific, but we have a generic Roland module that hopefully can be parametrized for the Juno-DS. Do you have the sysex documentation ready? |
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I believe the JUNO-DS MIDI Implementation has what is required. Just in case, here are additional documents: |
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Having had a quick look, indeed that looks correct. Page 12 of the MIDI Implementation document shows the data we need. If we look at the XV-3080 example, we need quite a lot of data: So the model ID for the Juno-DS is specified as [0x00, 0x00, 0x3a]. This is one byte more than the XV-3080. The RQ1 command is the same, so indeed it looks like the Juno-DS is supported by the GenericRoland. To define the data blocks required by the adaptation, we need to consult section 5 of the MIDI implementation document. This should have all the information we need. The patch block for the Juno-DS looks identical to the XV-3080, not knowing about compatibility between the two it could be they are exactly the same? We could reuse the _xv3080_patch_data definition. Also the user patches are at the same addresses as in the XV-3080, and the temporary patch at 0x1f 0x00 is called temporary patch/drum patch mode part 1. I think we could try to use the XV-3080 adaptation, change the device ID, increase the number of user patches to 256 from 128, and cross check the data sizes. For example, the PatchTone message details on page 48 seems to have length 0x01, 0x0a, which is one byte more than the XV-3080 at 0x01, 0x09. These things must match up for the whole machinery to work. The Roland format is absolutely bonkers, but generic. |
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Wow. I would be happy to test and possibly modify an initial version. Would you have time for that? |
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@mslinn Hi Mike, not sure which time zone you're in (I'm in CET), so.... here is a first shot for the Juno DS You can unzip that, and place it in the directory used for the user adaptations (there is an options menu entry to change that). Restart KnobKraft and it should offer you the Juno DS. Try an autodetect first, or open a sysex file from disk should you have files fo the Juno DS. When you report progress/observations, please attach the MIDI logs here as well as any syx files you might have! |
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Thanks for doing this. I am in ET (UTC -4). The Juno-DS is connected via USB and also on MIDI 8x8 7. MIDI channel 1 is selected in the synth:
MIDI CablesAutodetect using MIDI cables failed:
The log file merely contains these 2 lines: Quick check connectivity says: USB cable
If I try using the USB port JUNO-DS, pressing Auto-Detect yields: If I try using the USB port JUNO-DS DAW CTRL, pressing Auto-Detect yields: |
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I retried with just MIDI cables, no USB cable, and got the same results. How might I debug the detection problem? |
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Do zou have the MIDI log? We should see have a look at what bytes are send, and see if and what answer is sent. |
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The MIDI log is next to the setup tab |
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Ah, that helps. Can you trz to change line 38 of the adaptation to then restart KnobKraft and try again? It seems they have a 3 byte device code instead of 2! |
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This looks better, thanks: However, when I press F2, I see: |
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Hm, does it send anything when pressing F2? You can clear the MIDI log with the clear button before pressing it, so you see only the new communication . |
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F2 yields: |
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Ah, that indicates the MIDI channel detection did not work. On what MIDI channel is the device? Some synths also have a separate sysex ID next to the MIDI channel. Can you check the setup? Worst case we just hard code the 7f |
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Ok, can confirm this is a bug in the GenericRoland module, in that a redetect still uses the MIDI channel (which is a value from 0 to 15) instead of the extracted device id (which is 0x10 = 16 for the DS). That should be easy to fix! |
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Also, when I attempt to import all patches, first it imports user patches (I have not defined any yet), then it stalls at 50%.
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I made a git repo for this adaptation https://github.com/mslinn/knobkraft_adaptation_juno-ds |
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Here is a screenshot that might answer your questions: |
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@mslinn Not sure, did the result match your expectations? This would be correct if that bank in the synth all has init programs in it. |
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The JUNO-DS Parameter Guide shows all the patches provided with the product: I only see the INIT PATCH as shown above. Is that actually supposed to be a back of patches? When I enable any filter, INIT PATCH disappears. I viewed the video on the Knobkraft project page; although the UI no longer matches the current program, I am unable to view an array of patches as shown in the video. Perhaps there are no patches to view? I am confused because I do not know the sequence of UI controls to operate, or what to expect when I perform a sequence of actions. All combinations that I have tried have failed to show me any patches. I have been assuming that factory default patches are imported into Knobkraft ... is that what is supposed to happen? |
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Hm, we are only querying the user memory, and as you have not saved anything, it is all empty/init patch. The Roland presets, also known as ROM patches, are stored in other banks. The document details a bank switch command to activate a different bank, but I am not sure this would make the ROM sounds addressable via the transfer machanism. What you could try is to switch to a preset bank and then run the import again. I also don't know if there is a bulk copy function you could use to copy a bank of presets into the user bank, and then load the user bank into the KnobKraft? It seems the Juno does not allow to address the presets, altough it might only be a documentation gap. Just to make sure it works, can you manually save a preset into a user patch position and then reimport? You should at least get one more patch in the KnobKraft then. Saving is the write function, I guess in patch mode. |
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And you're right, in other synths it works like you expect - the ROM patches have actually been duplicated into the user memory by the synth manufacturer. Sometimes there are hidden functions to perform this copy, but googling I did not find anything similar for the DS. |
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Oh, and I have one more idea: The Item "Import edit buffer" (F8) would query only the current patch. Can you try to select a preset patch and then do import edit buffer? Look at the log to see if anything useful was imported. If that works, we can probably get the preset patches via bank select/program change/import edit buffer. |
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I have never seen a green bar anywhere in the UI. Is that a problem or just old documentation?
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Ah, the green bar is hidden if you have selected only one synth, that's a bit of a bug. To see it, just select any other synth in addition to the DS in the setup tab - you will get a top level synth selector which shows which synth is online. Awesome, so it seems we can retrieve the presets via the edit buffer mechanism instead of the program dump mechanism. The Orm can actually do that, but I need to setup the banks correctly, and it is a bit more complicated because I need to change the GenericRoland code. But this is great, I think we cracked the hardest nuts! I'll need a bit time to come up with a new adaptation! (Single click is enough, no need to double click.) |
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I am now able to import patches one by one, following the sequence I described above. I made a "User list" called Juno-DS Favs. Is there a way I can import the currently selected patch on the synth directly into my user list? Going through the entire process for each patch is a slow process, and feels awkward, partly because each time I press F8, the Roland Juno-DS menu folds up. This requires me to:
It would be nice if the User lists were implemented such that, if a User list was selected, F8 caused the imported patch to appear at the end of the user list. |
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That's a great feature idea actually! The tree folding is a bug that is filed elsewhere, but I definitely like the idea that F8 should put the patch into a user list, if selected. I uploaded a new version into your repo, please give it a try. It is a long shot because it works quite differently than before, but if we can get it to work it'll be awesome! |
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I downloaded and installed the new version ("v2"). User List GONEMy User list is gone. :( Most editors have a 'dirty bit' that shows the user that they have not yet saved their changes. Exiting the program should pop up a dialog that asks the user if they want to discard or save their work. Later I noticed that there were a lot of
What is the difference between I loaded the highest numbered database and found my user list and its patches. This file should automatically be loaded when the program starts. Displaying Synth PatchesUsing v2, I clicked on All patches / Roland Juno-DS / In synth / User patches 1 and the Synth Bank panel showed 128 items, labeled INIT PATCH, with ids ranging from 00-00 to 00-127. The message was: I did the same thing for User Patches 2 and saw this:
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Hm, the software uses a database, so ideally every change is immediately saved to disk, there is no need for a save button. You found the database backups which are created at start of the software, so this is good. They are meant for this situation should the software crash and somehow damage the main database. Make sure to save your database in a new place under a clear name so you can distinguish your active database from backups. When you use a backup as work, it will create backups of backups and at some point it can get confusing. Use the modification time to find out which is the most recent version. So it seems it works now, but the main change in code will only kick in when you try to download the preset patches. Try the MIDI... download patches from synth function as well, this gives you a list of banks to download. In theory, you should now be able to download the preset banks as well - downloading the user banks did the same as yesterday, I think. |
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Ah sory, now I got confused. The user lists will auto save like everything else in the software. The user banks currently don't, they re displayed with a red dirty frame and the user has to press save to database. Honestly I can't remember why I made it this way, maybe because there is no undo operation should you do something by accident. But I agree looking at the rest of the software, that this delayed save is somewhat surprising, I think the database should be saved automatically and immediately. |
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F7 Ran for a long time, then generated this:
The last bit of the MIDI log is: |
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What did you try to import? Can you try just a single preset bank? The screenshot shows you're importing the last one (EXP 06), while the log shows something different (also the timestamps don't match) |
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F7 (Import Preset patches from synth) Preset patches 1 mostly worked, with the following message: What should I do about the message which was repeated 3 times? Did a problem occur 3 times, or does the program always issue this message 3 times? The MIDI log is: This is the displayed result:
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I see 3 banks defined as Preset Patches 7; however, their contents are different. All banks import fine, except EXP 06 does not import due to: |
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The category error can be resolved by adding a mapping of Juno DS category to Knobkraft category, we can do that when the rest works and then warning will go away as well. |
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Ok, great! That is some good progress! So Import patches... basically just does that, it imports the patches from one or more banks in the synth, checks for duplicates, and then saves all new patches under an "import list" with the date of the import. The main use case here is you might have changed patches on the synth, forgot which ones, and you would just want to make sure you have backup of everything in the synth. This is the "KnobKraft 1.0" function. As you noted, the bank import triggered via In Synth... menu does mainly the same (KnobKraft 2.0), but it additionally records the patches with their current position in the synth. It does not have an import all banks yet, mainly because for many synths this would take forever and you want some control which banks to sync. We could reroute the F7 function to create banks as well, then it is just a secondary user interface to the sync, I have to check if there are really no subtle differences between the code paths though. The last bank not importing might be a bug in the adaptation, I have to check the log. Or maybe simply the size of the last bank is wrong in the documentation and we try to read past the end not getting completion, that would be a typical doc error I see often. The EXP04 or EXP06 banks are just the first of more "expansion banks" mentioned in the documentation. If EXP04 works and there are even more patches, we can add in the other ones into the adaptation definition as well. It seems the Juno-DS contains a lot of format expansion cards that had to be purchased and installed separately. What is still weird is that all patches are listed as "00-00" indicating it lost the original patch position. That must be another bug somewhere. |
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I just purchased a Roland Juno-DS. Is there a supported synth that is somewhat close to this one, or is there a way to make it work? I tried to auto-detect every supported Roland synth, but got no results.
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